All Fire Department employees were invited to attend and speak at the meeting, which took place April 12 at City Hall. Of the 15 or so firefighters who showed, seven spoke and described their department as a big family, with any disagreements stemming more from personality conflicts than from racism.

Following the meeting, council member Phyllis Bolden, D-District B, who is the chairman of the subcommittee and of the Health, Welfare and Public Safety Committee, said she is encouraged to know that in terms of the entire department "being a big racist bombshell no," that's not the case. She was particularly encouraged because four of the seven firefighters who spoke on behalf of the department are black. But she remains unhappy with accounts of "individual incidents that have happened involving racial slurs," she said.

A third meeting to wrap up the investigation is tentatively scheduled for Thursday at 6:30 p.m. at City Hall. Fire Chief Denis McCarthy is expected to speak at the meeting, Bolden said.

The subcommittee was formed in late November 2006 in response to the revelation of a videotape containing footage of firefighters using racial slurs in casual conversations at the Broad River firehouse. In addition to Bolden, the subcommittee's members include council President Michael Coffey, D-At Large; Majority Leader Carvin Hilliard, D-District B; Minority Leader Richard McQuaid, R-District A; Personnel Committee Chairman Herb Grant, D-District A; Joanne Romano, R-At Large; and William Krummel, D-District E.

The existence of the videotape was revealed to the media in mid-November by Scot Wilson, a black firefighter who at the time was suspended from duty and facing possible termination for reporting to work while under the influence of alcohol for a fifth time. Wilson had brought the videotape to McCarthy's attention months earlier, but McCarthy had chosen not to view it when Wilson said he did not plan to press charges against those using the racist language, which was not directed at him or any other member of the department.

Fire Inspector Kenneth Hall, who is a former president of the firefighters' union and was its first black president, was the first to speak during last week's meeting. Hall first addressed the comments made by Ron Mackey, the president of the Bridgeport Firebird Society, and Donald Day, the director of the Northeast Region of the International Association of Black Professional Fire Fighters, at the subcommittee's first meeting March 22. Mackey had condemned McCarthy's lack of action in the Wilson case as well as his record in recruiting women and minorities to the Westport Fire Department, where he previously served as chief. Day had criticized the entire force, saying, "The Norwalk Fire Department is so blinded by color it can't see the racism."

Hall noted that when someone speaks for him, he would like to be consulted first. "Therefore, [Mackey's and Day's] perception of the Fire Department is incorrect because they didn't speak to any members of the department," Hall said.

He also pointed out that "racism is alive and well all over this world."

The day that McCarthy became aware of the videotape, Hall said, "he asked me, 'Ken, do you think we have a racial problem in the Norwalk Fire Department?' And my reply to him was, 'Chief, racism is not rampant in the Norwalk Fire Department, but I cannot sit here and tell you that it does not exist I've experienced it myself."

At the time that Wilson brought the videotape to McCarthy's attention, it wasn't an issue, Hall said. "I think it was more just letting [McCarthy] know it had happened," he said.

Romano asked Hall if he felt that the chief had "handled the situation properly" at the time. "I probably would have reacted in the same manner," Hall said. "But I'm not the chief."

Prior to questioning Hall, McQuaid offered an apology to firefighters who had wanted to speak during the first meeting but did not get the opportunity. "It wasn't out of disrespect," but the meeting rambled on a bit too long, he said. Last week he encouraged anyone who wanted to speak to do so.

Hall said he feels that the real problem lies in the "biases" of entrance exams and the requirements for those exams. From 1987 to 2007, approximately 88 firefighters were hired, he said. "Out of the 88, there were three blacks and one Hispanic." The force now has approximately 140 members, including 11 who are black and two who are Hispanic, Hall said. He believes that hiring practices are an area that needs to be addressed.

In his parting thoughts to the subcommittee, Hall said of his fellow firefighters, "Speaking for myself, I don't consider my brothers racist." If he doesn't like what someone says to him, Hall said he addresses the comments right then and there.

"When that bell hits, I don't care who you are or what color you are, you do your job," he said.

Lt. John Tatun said the firefighters who reported to him at the Broad River firehouse, where he previously was stationed for nine years, have felt like they're "walking on eggshells" ever since this story hit the media. "The recent allegations of racism have deeply affected every member of the Norwalk Fire Department," he said. Department members have experienced "feelings of betrayal, anger and shock" at the allegations, which he said are not true.

Tatun also said he feels the subcommittee was "way out of line" in allowing the testimony from Day and Mackey during the first meeting. Tatun said he was "disgusted" by the remarks they made about the Fire Department.

"We pick on each other at the firehouse like any normal family would, because that is what we are a family," he said. "We can get on each other's nerves, but when the alarm sounds, we trust each other with our lives because that's what we do. We don't think about color, nationality or background of people when we respond. We are there to help and give our lives for someone we don't even know."

Hilliard asked Tatun about the level of diversity in the Fire Department and whether he thinks the hiring practices are fair, given that there are no female firefighters and few minorities. Tatun said efforts to recruit minorities were made when Sanford Anderson, McCarthy's immediate predecessor, was fire chief, including having minority firefighters go around the city with posters, some of which were in Spanish, seeking new applicants. Thus far, not much has helped, Tatun said. "You can't go out there and grab people by their shirt collars and drag them to take a test. They went out there and recruited minority firefighters they weren't out their recruiting white males," he said.

McQuaid asked whether Tatun feels there is racism in the Fire Department. "I feel that there is racism everywhere, and yes, there probably is some in the Norwalk Fire Department," Tatun replied. "But to be labeled as a racist Fire Department blatant racism that's completely false."

While serving as an officer at the Broad River firehouse, Tatun said he never had one complaint regarding racism. He has heard "certain comments from certain guys," he said. "They could be offensive, but I never had an official complaint." If a conversation ever went too far, Tatun said he told the men to calm down.

Broderick Sawyer, a six-year firefighter who is stationed at the Broad River firehouse, said the department has a great group of guys who have gotten a "bum rap."

"My take on it: There is no racism in the Norwalk Fire Department. We're brothers," Sawyer said. He also feels that the Bridgeport men who spoke at the last meeting are wrong about the department.

In addition, Sawyer said, "I was there [at the Broad River firehouse] for most of this stuff and everyone participated in the shenanigans."

When asked if he thinks McCarthy handled the situation properly, Sawyer said the chief is "progressive," but whenever certain incidents come up, like racism, "you kind of have to act." Personally, Sawyer added, "I probably would have addressed it."

Firefighter Bruce Bento was searching for answers and an apology from the subcommittee for its handling of the first meeting. He questioned why the Bridgeport men were invited to speak and what the panel's definition of a minority is. "Is it based on skin color or ethnicity?" he asked.

"Both," Bolden replied.

Then to be fair, Bento said, the panel should be asking the same questions of all members of the Fire Department. He also questioned why panel members inquired only about the numbers of blacks and Hispanics on the force and not of Asians and other ethnic backgrounds.

Bolden defended the subcommittee and said that when she had asked the fire chief for a list of minorities in the Fire Department, McCarthy only gave a breakdown of the numbers of blacks, Hispanics and whites. She also noted that the derogatory terms at issue were regarding blacks and Hispanics.

Bolden and Benton continued arguing, and McQuaid called for a two-minute recess. When the meeting resumed, tempers had cooled.

Bento remained on the stand, and Romano apologized to the people who did not get a chance to speak at the first meeting. Bento answered a few more questions and noted that the clashes the department faces are more personality related.

Firefighter Steve Wooton, who is serving his 22nd year on the force, said that he has no tolerance for racism and that overall the department is well behaved. He also noted that "there have been racism incidents in this department that should have been dealt with that haven't been." He did not elaborate on those incidents, however.

Firefighter Andre Williams, who is a 20-year veteran, made similar comments about having no tolerance for racism or racial insensitivity.

When Bolden asked what the council, subcommittee, mayor or Fire Commission could do to help bind the department back together, Williams noted that the members of the department always respect one another. "We need to have a chief who understands diversity, No. 1," he added.

After about two and a half hours of testimony, the meeting concluded.

Wilson was present at the meeting but did not address the subcommittee. Afterward he seemed pleased with how the subcommittee is proceeding. "They're up to the challenge and they're doing the challenge justice," he said.

At the conclusion of its investigation, the subcommittee will submit a statement of consensus to the mayor along with possible recommendations, according to Bolden.